From kck+@cs.cmu.edu Sat Sep 28 21:35:59 1991 From: kck+@cs.cmu.edu (Karl Kluge) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,soc.history,talk.politics.misc Subject: GEORGE MARTIN CAUGHT IN STUPID LIE (was RE:Extensive documentation..) Date: 28 Sep 91 21:33:27 GMT Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Nntp-Posting-Host: g.gp.cs.cmu.edu Originator: kck@G.GP.CS.CMU.EDU : From: gmartin@b-cpu.UUCP (George Martin) : Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.discrimination,soc.history,talk.politics.mi : Subject: RE:Extensive documentation for the Holocaust : Message-ID: <0kZy91w164w@b-cpu.UUCP> : Date: 28 Sep 91 05:54:20 GMT : Article-I.D.: b-cpu.0kZy91w164w : Organization: Banished CPU, +1(503) 232-6566 : : So don't take at face value all those 'FACTS' you all out there use : to repudiate the revisionists literature, unless you have personally : seen the original documents or the author has seen them and not just : quoting from another book he has read. Take your own advise. : While on the Wannsee Conference I will mention something said by : Robert Faurisson during the trial: : One of the critical passages of the Wannsee protocol; "A large part : [of the Jews under forced labor] will be lost through natural : decrease. The total remnant that finally in any case will remain, : since this is undoubtedly the part with the strongest resistance, : will have to be treated accordingly, since the latter, representing a : natural selection, is to be regarded, upon release, as the nucleus of : a new Jewish revival." Notice the word "release". When this is : translated for Americans, the words "upon release" don't appear. : There are not even three dots. These two words are suppressed. Not only is this a lie, it is a stupid lie. It is a stupid lie because it is so easily checked and so easily shown to be false. I was going over to the CMU library anyways, so I checked the following three books: Dawidowicz, Lucy A HOLOCAUST READER (c. 1976) Hilberg, Raul DOCUMENTS OF DESTRUCTION (c. 1971) Arad, Yitzhak DOCUMENTS ON THE HOLOCAUST ALL OF THEM HAD THE PHRASE IN QUESTION (well, one translated the word "release" as "liberation"). Since CMU apparently just happened to buy the only three collections of documents that give the phrase, I'm sure George won't mind responding withing 3 days with a list of at least *five* books which drop the phrase as Faurisson claims. Shouldn't be too hard if all the translations for Americans suppress the phrase. Maybe the three books I found were intended for non-American English speakers. Just as a warning to George: find that list of five fast. Because until you do, every single time you post your revisionist trash to the net, I'm going to repost this to expose you and the sources you quote for what they are. To give quotes from the last of the three: > Minutes of the Wannsee conference, 1/20/42: > > "Under appropriate direction the Jews are to be utilized for work in the > East in an expedient manner in the course of the final solution. In large > (labor) columns, with the sexes separated, Jews capable of work will be > moved into these areas as they build roads, during which a large proportion > will no doubt drop out through natural reduction. The remnant that > eventually remains will require suitable treatment; because it will without > doubt represent the most [physically] resistant part, it consists of a > natural selection that could, on its release, become the germ-cell of a new > Jewish revival. (Witness the experience of history.)" Note that "suitable treatment" is planned to prevent those who don't drop dead from serving as the source of a Jewish revival. The quote does *not* say the survivers would be released, it says that they would have to be subjected to "suitable treatment" to avoid their serving as a source of a Jewish revival were they released. By the way, George, doesn't it seem to you that planning to force people into work camps and kill as many of them as possible through overwork constitutes a plan to exterminate Jews? Also from the Wansee conference: > "In conclusion, there was a discussion of the various possible forms which > the solution might take, and here both Gautleiter Dr. Meyer and Secretary of > State Dr. Buhler were of the opinion that certain preparatory work for the > final solution should be carried out locally in the area concerned, but that > in doing so, alarm among the population must be avoided." So, George, what was the "final solution", and why might preparations for it have alarmed the local populations near the facilities where it was to be carried out? As long as we're on the subject of your post, you repeat an Irving quote that Ralph Winston had previously posted, so I'll ask you the same question I asked him, which he never answered: : As for how he evaluates the Einsatzgruppen reports: "Here we have to : look at the third of the Trevor-Roper criteria...why does this : document exist. A man is out in the field behind the Russian front : doing his job for the SS...and he is going to show he's doing a jolly : good job...Statistics like this are meaningless." (Sounds like our : inflated body counts during Viet Nam. The total number of : Einsatzgruppen troops was only about 3,000. The numbers of dead : attributed to them [millions] seems way out of line.) Well, let's not forget the help they got from Lithuanian partisans (for those who don't know, that's what the uproar over Lithuania issuing pardons for war crimes is all about). By the way, I don't know where Irving gets the idea that the Baltic states were on the Russian side of the front at the time of the Einsatzgruppen actions -- what a great historian he must be. On to the question, though: "Doing his job for the SS..." Just what do you and Irving think that job was, George? As near as I can tell from reading the reports, that job was going around, systematically killing Soviet Jews. Sure, when someone sends in a report with several pages of listings like > "20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jewish men, 176 J. women, 99 J. childr. 403 > 22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 " 495 " 196 " 1,159 > 24.9.41 Riesa 512 " 744 " 511 " 1,767" maybe they're padding the totals a little. Maybe only 170 Jewish children were shot and dumped in a mass grave near Novo-Wilejska on Sept. 9, 1941. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that there was a policy of systematically trying to kill Soviet Jews, though. For the benefit of readers who may not have seen an example of the Einsatz- kommando reports, here are extracts from one (taken from DOCUMENTS ON THE HOLOCAUST): > REPORT BY SD COMMANDER ON MASS SHOOTINGS OF JEWS IN LITHUANIA > > "Commander of the Security Police and the SD > Einsatzkommando 3 > Kovno, December 1, 1941 > > Reich Secret Document > > Final Summary of Executions carried out in the operating area of EK 3 up to > December 1, 1941. > ...I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of > solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in > Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families. > > These number: > in Shavli, about 4,500 > in Kovno, about 15,000 > in Vilna, about 15,000 > > I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well, but the > Civil Administration and the Wehrmacht attacked me sharply and issued a > prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot.... > > The carrying-out of such Aktionen is first of all an organizational problem. > The decision to clear each sub-district systematically of Jews called for a > thorough preparation for each Aktion and the study of local conditions. The > Jews had to be concentrated in one or more localities and, in accordance > with their numbers, a site had to be selected and pits dug. The marching > distance from the concentration points to the pits averaged 4 to 5 kms. The > Jews were brought to the place of execution in groups of 500, with at least > 2 kms. distance between groups.... > > In Rokiskis 3208 people had to be transported 3 miles before they could be > liquidated. To manage this job in a 24-hour period, more than 60 of the 80 > available Lithuanian partisans had to be detailed to the cordon.... > > Kovno itself, where trained Lithuanian partisans are available in sufficient > numbers, was comparatively speaking a shooting paradise." > > DOCUMENTS OF DESTRUCTION gives the detailed breakdown by date and gender of > the victims that accompanied the report. The numbers reported shot (mostly > Jews along with the odd POW, Communist, or partisan) total 137,346. It > contains several pages of listings like > "20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jewish men, 176 J. women, 99 J. childr. 403 > 22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 " 495 " 196 " 1,159 > 24.9.41 Riesa 512 " 744 " 511 " 1,767" Karl Kluge (kck@g.cs.cmu.edu) These are my opinions, and do not reflect the opinions or policies of Carnegie Mellon, the School of Computer Science, or our funding agencies.